I have this friend, and she is awesome. The guys love her (really, everyone does!). She is a woman who will grab your attention, because she is just so beautiful, inside and out.
She's had boyfriends, and almost-boyfriends, and has been single for a while lately. She was recently asked out for a dinner date.
You'd think that's no big deal, right? But here's the sad thing. For all her dating over the years, that was the first time a new guy asked this amazing woman specifically out for a real, intentional date. No confusing "talking" period. No masking it as hanging out. No "friendlationship" crap. He was a guy who knew what he wanted: to take my friend out for a fun evening and get to know her more. And so he simply asked her! He didn't waste his time -- or more importantly, hers.
Let me tell you something - that, in and of itself, was attractive. And rare.
I guess when you're in high school and college, people are still kids and have to be all weird about everything. I guess.
If you are a male who is past college-age, though, I have a message for you: grow up, and man up to the challenge. If you're interested in getting to know a girl, do her a favor and just ask her out--on a real date, mind you. "Hanging out" is a misleading waste of time. (Unless you really just want to be friends, and then it's fine, of course! But in my opinion, unless you're already good friends with the lady, hanging out is most safely done with more people than just the two of you. No one likes mixed messages.)
Right, so she might turn you down. Getting turned down sucks, surely...but regardless of her response, if she's like nearly every woman I know, she will respect you a lot more if you are upfront, than if you putz around making her guess at what you're really up to.
(Oh yeah -- for this to work right, I think men AND women have to recognize a date for what it is -- a single square on the calendar. It shouldn't be equated with anything it is not, like commitment, marriage, love, etc. It doesn't even have to mean "I like you"...just simply, "I want to know you at least a little better." No pressure there, on either side. Right? Am I crazy?)
I know many guys have good intentions when they try to hang out with their lady of interest without actually asking her out. But you know how we women feel when we get the drift of what's going on? Oftentimes, we feel manipulated. We feel like you are trying to trick us into liking you. That is not fertile ground for growing respect, my friends.
And if you feel that the only way you can "get a girl" is to trick her, well...first of all, that's probably not true, if you're a decent guy with integrity; and second of all, it's your issue to resolve - don't do her the disservice of protecting your insecurities by being ambiguous or unclear. It's 2008, and upfront honesty is still the best policy.
(You've seen the movie scene...guy who's trying to ask out girl says, "I'm really nervous/bad at this." Does girl say, "What? You are such a freaking loser; get out of my face!" No - if she is a decent woman with compassion, she thinks it's sweet. :P)
So, to mash up my platitudes: if you can't do something honestly and openly, don't do anything at all.
I'm sure that should be taken to heart by everyone, not just guys. But I have to laugh (not really) that among our many stereotypes, we women are "hard to read"...we expect that men should be able to "read our minds"...we don't "say what we mean"...
These days, that door swings both ways so hard, it's about to come off its hinges.
Not being a guy, I don't know what the big deal is with asking women out, except for maybe that whole "rejection" thing. What a terrible word. When women say "no," we are saying no to a date with you. We are not saying, "I reject you as a human being." Just because one chick turns you down for a date doesn't mean that you're worthless, or that no other women could possibly take you up on it! Remember, it's just a square on a calendar...not the end of the world.
The funny (or sad) thing is, I don't know many women at all who are even given chances to say no...or yes.
So, guys, you should do yourselves, and us, a favor. Be courageous. Be honest. Be men.
[tasteful comments/rebuttals are welcome...]
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
15 comments:
I COMPLETELY agree, and couldn't have said it better myself. Men are so shortsighted sometimes, and this is a great way to let them know what women really want.
But I'm a child,
what would I know?
:)
I think you're being a little unfair here! Most women don't know what they want, just like most guys don't know what they want! I understand that you view this as "attractive", but I also think you described exactly what I believe to be the reason that men don't do this.
A "date" has this connotation that it's some epic event. Heck, you even blogged about this one!
Here would be my advice to the women folk out there: If a guy wants to spend time with you alone, he has some interest in being with you and is trying to get some more information. It may not be a "date" but he's expressing interest. Most of the best relationships I know have grown over time, maturing and developing and letting your lives grow together. I don't know of many that were like "boy meets girl, asks girl on date".
The man who gets to know a girl at his own pace is often not a weasel. Most men I know like to take their time, observe and try to get a feel for what a woman's real deal is. I think there's obviously a breaking point where you need to be open about what the future of the relationship is (DTR), but I think if you're incapable of telling whether a man is into you then you're kind of an idiot. Ask a guy friend, he always knows what the guy is doing! For that matter, any man you think you're interested in should be run by your male friends. Listen to them.
Society does not demand dating anymore, so men don't feel the need to ask on dates. Frankly, I think the model of dating where you ask a girl on a date, then another date is so fraught with pressure and awkwardness that it likely is going the way of the dinosaur anyway.
There are certainly douchebags out there who will try to weasel their way into your life (C.L.), but most men are standup, confident dudes who don't want to waste their time (or their money) on some woman who isn't worth their salt.
Why would you take a woman out and pay for her dinner if you barely know her? I don't get this at all.
I know that you, Melinda, and your unnamed friend (who i may know) are great and awesome women, but there are LOADS of women out there who really suck. Eventually a man gets tired of handing out free dinners to stupid, trifling women!
Personally, I would never take a woman out on a date until I had a pretty good idea who she was and whether I was legitimately interested in her. And I can say with all confidence that these women are few and far between.
wow! initials not neccessary...i'm the only one with the right to do that (b/c i do happen to know the woman in question!)
i think what we are referring to here is what you are saying - there comes a point where something needs to be said.
and at that point, you know the other person well enough to know that they are not going to take a simple "i am interested in you but don't know where this will go, if anywhere" and blow it into "we're getting married."
but, it is many females' experiences that the conversation is never even brought up, thus putting the woman in the position to go home every night and think about whether or not she needs to bring it up and basically ruin anything in the future since then, the guy doesn't feel like the guy anymore.
make any sense?
it's a hard position to be in as a woman - to know that someone does have interest in you and to be interested in them without ever having a clue about his intentions. You can tell me all day that someone has interest in me, but unless they say it themselves (no matter how big or small the interest is), you better believe i'm going to write it off. girls like to be excited and giddy about new relationships (or prospects of) and unfortunately, i don't think i've felt excited in...hmm...6 years. wow.
i'm just saying, i know it's 2008, but i'm still trying to leave a little room to be girly. unemotional, not caring, "whatever" michelle is not the real michelle. if you force me to put away my excited, lovey emotions for too long because you don't breach the subject of any interest in me whatsoever, you are missing out on the real michelle.
it shouldn't take a guy that long to figure out who is worth their time and who isn't. don't give me that, jeff lail. you know who to invest time in and who's a waste. maybe not the first day, but the first month? yes.
i will stop now. :)
You know me well enough, "pete", to know that I am extremely open with my intentions. It makes me angry as well, that douchebags like Clayton Lee are not open with their intentions and feelings toward women (and consistent for that matter). It makes me angry b/c it ends up screwing over guys like me and also making women feel weirded out b/c the one asshole has them handcuffed BUT has their heart as well.
I'm just amazed that this conversation is never brought up. What exactly is this guy doing? Hanging around, being a buddy, when he's interested in someone? I just don't get it at all!
On a very basic level...women don't kiss their friends (at least they shouldn't). I like kissing. This is a decent incentive BY ITSELF to be open about your feelings. More open = more kissing. Everyone wins!
But seriously, I love it when women are excited and cute! I'm a big fan.
But on behalf of all men, women...make up your damn mind already. There are great guys who would treat you like princesses, but you're too busy following around some dumbass who is not only a known cheater and greaseball, but also won't even tell you if he wants to get serious with you. Give me a break.
Ladies, sometimes the writing is on the wall and you're just ignoring the obvious. I cannot tell you enough. Ask a male friend, ask an ex boyfriend, they always know when a guy is a douche. Listen to them.
i agree with all that. seriously.
just wish i would meet anyone who fits the latter description. it's been awhile.
Can't say that I've been super impressed by what's out there, either. :)
Being that relationships are much more complicated than one blog post can convey, I knew I wouldn't address every issue, and that there was some oversimplification going on when i wrote it...oh, i wanted to write more..but figured i'd end up writing a book!. (for men AND women. women are not absolved of responsibility for certain things.)
some good points, jeff. some good points, mich. I will say that obviously (well, maybe only to people who know me), i don't think all guys just go around being manipulative idiots. I knew i was probably being unfair at times (but see the first sentence of this comment). That post was simply born out of the fact that, no lie, ALL of my significant personal experiences with the opposite sex, and many of my female friends' experiences, have been strictly characterized by guys who have wasted our time and/or made us feel bad because we were left questioning what was going on (including both instances of when we *were* interested, and instances when we *weren't*).
I think one potential difference of opinion between guys and girls is when that "breaking point" (for a DTR or something) has been reached.
But what I really don't like about "traditional" dating going the way of the dino is that it gives a guy an easy out. He can fish around, "trying to get more information," not realizing he may be getting the girl's hopes up (yes, some guys are that ignorant/selfish/in denial/whatever). Then, maybe he decides it's a no go. He disappears, and she is left wondering what the heck just happened. And yes, I know girls do that to guys, too. I probably have, though not consciously.
I just wish we didn't all have to get freaked out by or be judgmental of feelings...then we could just be upfront about everything without fear of repercussions! But i guess that would take the mystery out of it :P
I want to say a lot more but it's Friday night so it'll have to wait! :)
well, just to finish up -
"You can tell me all day that someone has interest in me, but unless they say it themselves (no matter how big or small the interest is), you better believe i'm going to write it off." --> This is so true...not for all women, but for the pragmatists among us, yes. Maybe we're a little jaded, or too realist-oriented for our own good, but it's the just the truth.
"but there are LOADS of women out there who really suck. Eventually a man gets tired of handing out free dinners to stupid, trifling women!" --> I'll give you that. Like I said, being a girl, I haven't really been sure what the big deal is, but that makes sense.
"I'm just amazed that this conversation is never brought up. What exactly is this guy doing? Hanging around, being a buddy, when he's interested in someone? I just don't get it at all!" --> Yeah, us neither! Unfortunately, not everyone sees things logically like you do Jeff. :P :)
"Most women don't know what they want" --> It's so interesting to me that that's your perception, because most women I know very MUCH know what they want, me included. Maybe some are just bad at behaving like it?...I can see that I think. Or maybe my friends and I are not "most women" - hey i'll take that ;)
"But on behalf of all men, women...make up your damn mind already." --> Right back atcha. (not at YOU, haha)..Really, it's a problem on both sides.
Basically: i think EVERYbody should just [at least try to] be conscientious of what you're doing, and under most circumstances, consider the other person before yourself. sigh....wouldn't that resolve (or better, prevent) so many issues? seems like.
that's probably one of those things that's easier said than done, though.
wow. This has been most entertaining, really. I agree with everyone.
2 questions:
1) I have heard several women state that they're not sure what they want, why is this? Is it just b/c they were experiencing these aforementioned idiots? I'd love some clarification here. I think there are just as many women who don't know what they want or how to get there as there are guys (i think this is the disease of the mid 20s)
2) When IS the proper point for said DTR if you think there's some disagreement on when that is?
Mip said...
1) Mmm, not really sure! I still maintain that as far as the women *I* know go, they very much know what they want. As far as how to get there, though, much less clarity (I don't know who does know that?..)
And I'm just taking liberties here, b/c who knows what factors into an individual's saying she doesn't know what she wants - but the one reason I can conjecture is if a person is really interested in someone but for some reason doesn't think he'd be "good" for her, that can = lots of conflict = not knowing what you want to have happen...any other women have other thoughts? That's all i got.
2) I feel silly getting all technical, and I'm not even sure that I can. First off, I think a "DTR breaking point" is defined by the two individuals involved, and is a joint process, and so i think it just depends on those two people and what they're bringing into the situation. So i think that's relative.
That said, what I think is probably not relative (again, to the women i know) would be a DTI! - define the intentions. I think intentions should be out there and understood before there's a "relationship" that even needs to be defined. You said if a girl can't tell, she's an idiot. I beg to differ. There's this thing that happens a LOT, called mixed messages - conflicting behaviors, behavior conflicting with words, whatever.
If we're talking timelines, again, I feel silly being technical, but I think Michelle was basically right when she said within a month, people should be able to know what the heck they want with regard to the other person - and she also said, at that point "you know the other person well enough to know that they are not going to take a simple 'i am interested in you but don't know where this will go, if anywhere' and blow it into 'we're getting married.'" My thoughts as well. I would almost think sooner than a month, but in my mind that really depends on how much interaction there's already been.
It's fine if a guy is info-fishing, but I just think it's really rude if he goes fishing for several weeks, or especially if for several months, then decides he doesn't care for the catch, and packs up and goes home without ever having said a word. And, say he thinks he might want to hold on to the catch for at least a while - it'd be appreciated if he clued her in that that's what he *might* want! (If the perceived danger in this is that she might take it and run with it way too far too fast, well, I don't know what to say to that except to once again refer to me and my friends, which is all I know...most of us are realistic and don't hear wedding bells at the drop of a hat. Some girls do I guess.)
Anyway, I don't know that there can be any hard-and-fast "rules" to this...human beings/emotions/attractions will never be subject to objective rules, for the most part.
although i realize that i might not be the best person to be able to verbalize how this process SHOULD look (since i've been a part of the way it shouldn't look a couple too many times), i do have one thing to add.
to jeff & me-linda's question/points about what makes a woman not know what she wants...i can add to this b/c i have become one...
i used to "know" what i wanted. that was when i was young(er) and had soaring expectations (probably non-human expectations) of what a man should look like.
then i dated people. then those relationships didn't quite factor out to what i thought.
then i "relationed" (undefined deating-ish) with people who were unsure about me (probably for different reasons, depending on their pasts). this time in my life created a questioning, critical, extremely hopeless woman in terms of faith in relationships.
maybe the fact is that you can only bring yourself and your past experience (aka "baggage") to a relationship. guys might come off as sketchy or undecisive because they were hurt in the past. girls might come off as eager to settle down because they need security.
but the other fact is (and i think what melinda is alluding to) that if you see a good catch, you know it. and you should be a little bit more purposeful in your pursuit of that. that's what a good woman wants and is waiting around for.
(this is not to say "throw melinda's post out the window" but sometimes women also need to say their overall, general peace on the issue as a whole to talk things out in their head...so maybe 'ol j. lail should read it as a whole concept instead of breaking it down line by line and accept it as a cathartic post)
**i know that most ppl reading this would think i just completely called him out, but i happen to know he likes a challenge!**
(now i need to work.)
that I do. Accepted and appreciated! I was just picking your brain. :)
Melinda, I've thought about this post a few times since we talked about it initially. I've concluded after all this thought that you are right.
I hate admitting it, but you're right.
Haha wow, thanks for the honesty, and here's the funny part...since writing it, I've wondered if I took a few too many liberties...but only a very few :) So maybe we're basically on the same page now.
Of course, you've now obviously begged the question, "why the mindshift?" But if I know anything about Jeff Lail, it's that if he actually wants to say something, he will. Unless you were just baiting me/us. ;)
Post a Comment